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Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 18 1999    Volume 1999 : Number 1359<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.<BR>
All rights reserved.<BR>
<BR>
The following topics are covered in this digest:<BR>
<BR>
Re: Traveller-like fiction<BR>
racing<BR>
modern roleplayers<BR>
RE: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
Re: That vessel on the SMC cover<BR>
Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
Re: Traveller-like fiction<BR>
Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
Re: IMoJ<BR>
Re: Nightmare Players<BR>
Re: Riot Control Agents<BR>
Re: Riot Control Agents<BR>
remove<BR>
Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
<BR>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:08:34 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-like fiction<BR>
<BR>
> >Can anyone recommend a novel that is<BR>
> "traveller-like" in atmosphere?<BR>
<BR>
No-one has yet mentioned, there is actually an<BR>
official Traveller novel - at least one, anyhow. It<BR>
begins with a captain anxious to make his payments on<BR>
his ship, and looking for a crew... he takes on a<BR>
mysterious passenger, an alien of unrecognised race,<BR>
and...<BR>
<BR>
I forget the name, Jeff might know if there wre any<BR>
others written? It even had some basic traveller rules<BR>
in the back, it was a game tie-in....<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:38:45 +1100<BR>
From: Cory Davis <c.davis@uws.edu.au><BR>
Subject: racing<BR>
<BR>
Hi all<BR>
<BR>
why not have a race through an asteriod belt, having to go past a set of<BR>
beacons making up different stages. that way it will be more like a car<BR>
rally than deep sea yachting, so  the circuit isn't too large and that way<BR>
you would be able to have enough camera ships to get a good look at the<BR>
action. The course could be arrranged so you could go the longer but safer<BR>
route through the asteroids or the quicker but more dangerous route, and<BR>
you could change between stages or try half the safe then swap over to the<BR>
dangerous mid stage, and  then the final stage would be a sprint to the finish<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
you would have a set computer type so as to make it an exercise in<BR>
navigation and piloting, you could also have the refueling stage as was<BR>
suggested Robert Prior fixed software, unlimited software, different ship<BR>
and crew size classes, different TL classes, racing against the clock or<BR>
against other ships, include ECW<BR>
<BR>
I reckon thats enough to make it a spectacle. if you think it's popular you<BR>
can have at the end of a race, media corps using high jump couriers to get<BR>
the race tapes to the surrounding systems. that gives you some good<BR>
adventure oportunities such as stealing the tapes, trying to beat the corps<BR>
with a bootleg set of tapes or trying to stop bootleg tapes from gettin out<BR>
of the system for the corps<BR>
<BR>
I picked out a couple of systems that would make good racing systems in the<BR>
Spinward marches but I'm at work and my notes are at home<BR>
<BR>
how does that sound<BR>
<BR>
Cory<BR>
__________________________________________________________________________<BR>
Cory Davis	                       Postal Address: PO Box 10 Kingswood  <BR>
Systems Officer        		        	NSW Australia 2747<BR>
Library                               		  Phone: + 61(02)9852 5899<BR>
University of Western Sydney Nepean		      Mobile: 041 863 6597<BR>
Email: c.davis@uws.edu.au      	            <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:43:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: modern roleplayers<BR>
<BR>
> Kyle wrote:<BR>
> >Well, I can yak about this stuff for days! I've<BR>
> played<BR>
> >with every kind of player there is, from the<BR>
> munchkins<BR>
> >to the method actors. One method actor type<BR>
> actually<BR>
> >went to a brothel "dungeon" because he wanted to<BR>
> >explore his "inner darkness"; he was a Vampire<BR>
> player.<BR>
> >Creepy stuff! That particular game I dislike<BR>
> because<BR>
> >done as it's intended, it's all rather dark and<BR>
> >depressing. I think a dark seesion or two is great,<BR>
> >but ultimately if I want to be a misanthropic<BR>
> socially<BR>
> >isolated angst-ridden strange dude (like vampires<BR>
> are<BR>
> >supposed to be according to most players), I'd say<BR>
> I<BR>
> >could probably manage that in real life (not that I<BR>
> >have, thank G-d!) And if it ain't done that way,<BR>
> it's<BR>
> >just meaningless slaughter, and incomprehensible<BR>
> >politics.<BR>
<BR>
Jeff wrote: <BR>
> No argument from me - I never saw the point of the<BR>
> whole 'neo-Goth'<BR>
> movement. I don't know how old you are, and won't<BR>
> venture a guess ([Kyle is 28], but<BR>
> in my case, I see it as a reaction to the excessive<BR>
> liberalism,<BR>
> sweetness, and light that was preached from every<BR>
> rooftop during the<BR>
> '60s and '70s - these are today's kids 'rebelling'<BR>
> against the parents<BR>
> who were the rebels during that era. I don't<BR>
> approve, but I also don't<BR>
> condemn. But it does lead to its own style of<BR>
> 'entertainment',<BR>
> especially in gaming.<BR>
[Kyle: I see it more as a nihilistic kind of thing,<BR>
certainly that of a Vampire is a life pretty much<BR>
devoid of meaning, everything ultimately coming don to<BR>
animal survival, there being no "higher values."]<BR>
> <BR>
> Also, to some extent, people are 'growing up' too<BR>
> fast these days,<BR>
> becoming 'too sophisticated' before they've been<BR>
> able to just have<BR>
> fun.  That leads to the 'method acting' style of<BR>
> rle-playing - not<BR>
> automatically a bad thing, but it leads to a gaming<BR>
> style that feels<BR>
> 'forced' or artificial. I don't believe that gaming<BR>
> should be like<BR>
> that.  Vampire and Werewolf encourage it; Traveller,<BR>
> GURPS, *D&D, and<BR>
> so on allow it, but don't encourage it, and I feel<BR>
> that the latter are<BR>
> more fun when you _don't_ get into the method-acting<BR>
> mode. Sure, some<BR>
> acting is necessary, but the idea is to act like<BR>
> your character would,<BR>
> based on the situation, as though it were real life<BR>
> - not some sort of<BR>
> dramatic presentation (which is what most neo-Goth<BR>
> theme games<BR>
> encourage).<BR>
[Kyle: also, there's an age old tendency of teenagers<BR>
to take themselves rather too seriously, and the game<BR>
not at all seriously. Thus, "munchkins"!]<BR>
> <BR>
Kyle wrote:<BR>
> >I always felt that a roleplaying session should be<BR>
> >fun. Sometimes it's fun to be scared, or in a dark<BR>
> >atmosphere, or worried, or disgusted, but<BR>
> >ultimately...<BR>
> <BR>
> jeff wrote: Uh, huh. If it ain't fun, why bother?<BR>
> <BR>
Kyle wrote:<BR>
> >So that's the method actors. And the muchkins,<BR>
> well,<BR>
> >you don't need me to tell you about them! Also, I'd<BR>
> >like to add that when I said I'll take them on in<BR>
> >games, I just meant, like, one or two in a group of<BR>
> >more mature players, to season them, as it were. A<BR>
> >whole group of them, oy, too much! I am not by<BR>
> nature<BR>
> >a self-sacrificing person.<BR>
<BR>
Jeff wrote:<BR>
> Been there, done that, got the scars to prove it. <BR>
> And so do a lot of<BR>
> people, which is probably why they don't like to<BR>
> game with newbies,<BR>
> especially those who show munchkin/minmax<BR>
> tendencies. I think that<BR>
> ultimately, the trick will be to get them just as<BR>
> they're starting to<BR>
> get involved, so that they can be gently guided past<BR>
> the pitfalls.<BR>
> But maybe that's just me being a bit cynical...<BR>
<BR>
[Kyle writes: Well, I say, those that don't take on<BR>
the kids, shouldn't complain that there are so few in<BR>
roleplaying today, so few at conventions!] <BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 12:51:28 +1000<BR>
From: "cjbrain" <cjbrain@bigpond.com><BR>
Subject: RE: New BITS product hinted at<BR>
<BR>
>>> Sources close to the BITS Director suggest that the Penguin throwing<BR>
>>> supplement may well be ready for press very soon.<BR>
><BR>
>>_101 Ballistic Flightless Birds, actually, which will feature thrown<BR>
>>penguins along with catapulted ostriches, dropped EMU's, hurled dodos, and<BR>
>>so forth.<BR>
<BR>
What will the gearheads use to calculate the characteristics for these? How<BR>
about "Feathers, Fusion & Steel"?<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 18:08:15 PST<BR>
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)<BR>
Subject: Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
<BR>
In mail you write:<BR>
<BR>
> On Mon, 15 Nov 1999 23:00:10 -0500<BR>
>  "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net> wrote:<BR>
><BR>
>>Another interesting idea would be "Subsector (or Sector, or Domain) Fairs",<BR>
>>or Olympic style sporting events that are "fixed" in a specific location,<BR>
>>but only for a short time. The Subsector Fair is particularly applicable,<BR>
>>stylistically. The real World's Fair concept will be forever linked with<BR>
>>"the World of Tomorrow" style Golden Age sci-fi. Both ideas make excellent<BR>
>>adventure hooks... wow... my mind is swimming with the possibilities.<BR>
><BR>
> Great Ideas! That's the sort of thing I wanted. The Subsector Fair is<BR>
> full of possibilities.  It is exactly the 'draw' I was talking about.<BR>
> It would have to run for months, but would draw visitors from across<BR>
> the subsector. Maybe every ten years or so there would be a big<BR>
> sector wide draw that lasts a full year.<BR>
<BR>
Consider that the "World's Fair" runs for pretty much a year (or<BR>
more!). <BR>
<BR>
Allowing for travel time, and setup and the like, I'd expect subsector<BR>
Fairs to run for at least a year. And say, have scheduled for starts 5<BR>
years apart. That's to allow travel & setup time for the exhibits from<BR>
worlds that can't afford to duplicate their setups. <BR>
<BR>
Also, if they last from 1-3 years, then there's lots of time for people<BR>
to save up, and a bigger window to plan trips around. <BR>
<BR>
I expect them to be scheduled up to 25 years in advance.<BR>
<BR>
Sectors are even bigger, so put Sector fairs on, say, a 10 year interval. <BR>
<BR>
- -- <BR>
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)<BR>
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred<BR>
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:18:14 -0500<BR>
From: "Jory Earl" <j-man@iname.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
<BR>
>Is that fifteen seconds BEFORE or AFTER you take Elaine to the captain's<BR>
quarters? ;) ;)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Gives a whole new meaning to showing her the "Captain's Log"..:)<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
 J-Man<BR>
 ICQ# 2843475<BR>
 New Hampshire - U.S.A.<BR>
 Email : j-man@iname.com<BR>
 Home Page : http://www.geocities.com/~jman037/<BR>
___________________________________________________________<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:01:28 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: That vessel on the SMC cover<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Just had another look at the SMC, and Doug is right - is could have been done<BR>
MUCH better. For example, in the Referee's Synopsis of the intro adventure,<BR>
references are made that are left out of the expanded version - you really need<BR>
to read both sections fully to understand what the hell is going on.<BR>
<BR>
Anyway, something else that I found is that the High Guard stats for the 20,000t<BR>
Battle Riders show that each have "4 Gunboats" as carried craft - but the stats<BR>
for the gunboats are not given. Thus the "154th Squadron" is missing some ships.<BR>
If I get some time, I'll try to re-engineer the 'Riders according to HG, just so<BR>
that I can see how big the "gunboats" are. Obviously, they are NOT 20,000t<BR>
worth, but probably closer to the median 1500t figure..<BR>
<BR>
Alternatively, would someone else with more time on their hands (and access to<BR>
the stats - I forgot to bring them in) like to give it a shot?<BR>
<BR>
BTW, the 154th appears as a 6-2-8 unstreamlined squadron counter in the 5FW<BR>
boxed game (6 = Attack, 2 = Bombardment, 8 = Defence).<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:07:38 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
<BR>
>From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
<BR>
>The Seinfeld gang would last fifteen seconds on my<BR>
>ship.<BR>
<BR>
I think they're fairly typical of PCs in many respects<BR>
- -- they don't much care what happens to those around<BR>
them and will do anything to achieve their objectives.<BR>
 PCs usually aren't whiners, however.  <BR>
<BR>
- --Glenn<BR>
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<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 22:14:11 -0600<BR>
From: tim@premier.net<BR>
Subject: Re: Traveller-like fiction<BR>
<BR>
From:           	"Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@paradise.net.nz><BR>
To:             	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
Date sent:      	Thu, 18 Nov 1999 14:00:46 +1300<BR>
Subject:        	Re: Traveller-like fiction<BR>
Send reply to:  	traveller@lists.imagiconline.com<BR>
<BR>
> On 17 Nov 99, at 14:03, Craig Berry wrote:<BR>
> <BR>
> > > Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 11:29:19 -0800<BR>
> > > From: "Tim MacPherson" <timac@home.com><BR>
> > > <BR>
> > > Can anyone recommend a novel that is "traveller-like" in atmosphere?<BR>
> ><BR>
> > <BR>
I would read Stephenson Donaldson Gap series, though its not <BR>
quite Travellerish, it has first contact, theft, space pirates, and lots <BR>
of plot twist just to name a few reasons to read them.<BR>
<BR>
The other Rick Shelley. Though I have not read everyone of his <BR>
books (most though)  His treatenment of war is probably the best i <BR>
have read.  His ability to combine command level, with the actions <BR>
of lone solider and the locale population effect is great. Also for <BR>
those who are tired of the American Centeric SF, his universe is <BR>
anglo centeric, with a new British Commonwealth. <BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:17:23 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: Arts and Culture in and around 3I<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
>The PC's are asked to investigate allegations of corruption in the<BR>
>ticketing arrangements.<BR>
>oops!<BR>
><BR>
>Graeme Batho<BR>
<BR>
You're lucky your name is not Graham _Richardson_...<BR>
<BR>
- - Hyphen<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:26:11 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
<BR>
- --- Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com> wrote:<BR>
> >From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net><BR>
> <BR>
> >The Seinfeld gang would last fifteen seconds on my<BR>
> >ship.<BR>
> <BR>
> I think they're fairly typical of PCs in many<BR>
> respects<BR>
> -- they don't much care what happens to those around<BR>
> them and will do anything to achieve their<BR>
> objectives.<BR>
>  PCs usually aren't whiners, however.  <BR>
> <BR>
> --Glenn<BR>
<BR>
PCs also constantly crack jokes, too.<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:25:54 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Passengers<BR>
<BR>
From: Glenn Goffin <gmgoffin@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>I think [the Seinfeld characters are] fairly typical of PCs in many<BR>
>respects -- they don't much care what happens to those around them<BR>
>and will do anything to achieve their objectives. PCs usually aren't<BR>
>whiners, however.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, the characters might not be whiners, but how about the players?<BR>
<BR>
GM: "Ohhh... A hit for 2 points of damage."<BR>
Player: "Ugh... that puts me out. Am I dead?"<BR>
GM: "Yeah, 'fraid so."<BR>
Player: "Whaddya mean I'm dead? How can Eniri just die like that?"<BR>
GM: "Well, the Aslan beat you in single combat..."<BR>
Player: "C'mon! That's just absurd. How could he beat me?"<BR>
GM: "He was an Aslan martial arts champion. You knew that before you<BR>
repeatedly called his honor into question and told him he couldn't fight his<BR>
way out of a paper bag..."<BR>
<BR>
...and so on, until at last:<BR>
<BR>
GM: <in frustration> "SERENITY NOW!"<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 15:33:21 +1000<BR>
From: david.d.jaques-watson@centrelink.gov.au<BR>
Subject: Re: IMoJ<BR>
<BR>
Dear Folks -<BR>
<BR>
Robert said:<BR>
>>I think there was an article, "Law in the Imperium," back in<BR>
>>Challenge, which spoke about the Imperial Ministry Of Justice (IMOJ)<BR>
>>and gave some statistics for the number of agents.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>There was. Unfortunately, the article reads very much like a summary of<BR>
>common law as it exists in America.<BR>
[snip]<BR>
>Extremely disappointing, especially when you consider all the possibilities<BR>
>that were ignored.<BR>
<BR>
Would you like to elaborate? Give us some new ideas about the MoJ, since its<BR>
canon is patchy.<BR>
<BR>
Here's my initial ideas to kick around:<BR>
- - restricted jurisdiction of planetary law leads to legal bounty hunters<BR>
- - is the MoJ set up as S.O.T.E., one office per system (but then do you have too<BR>
much Imperial representation?), or is it much, much smaller (the Secret Service,<BR>
rather than the FBI?)<BR>
- - how tenacious are the MoJ?<BR>
- - given the Imp Navy background from T4, who has jurisdiction over pirates? Do<BR>
the MoJ only follow the money trail, while the IN smash the ships? Does the IISS<BR>
have a role? ie. are there still "turf wars" or has this been ironed out over<BR>
the last 1000 years?<BR>
- - and finally, long-term TMLers probably know my opinion about the status of<BR>
IRIS - that I believe it can be explained as a remnant of the post-Rebellion<BR>
MoJ, setting themselves up as Emperor-brokers.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
David "Hyphen" Jaques-Watson        Beowulf Down (Tavonni/Vilis/SM 1520)<BR>
http://www.tip.net.au/~davidjw                       davidjw@pcug.org.au<BR>
"I file things in historical order, with a hashing algorithm of gravity"<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
REQ'D DISCLAIMER - material & opinions contained within are solely those<BR>
of the author and do not necessarily represent, in whole or in part, the<BR>
position of Centrelink or any other Commonwealth Government agency.<BR>
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:44:22 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Nightmare Players<BR>
<BR>
> Well, the characters might not be whiners, but how<BR>
> about the players?<BR>
<BR>
Who is more of a whiner, the whiner, or the whiner who<BR>
whines about the whiners?:)<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
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------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 21:45:44 -0700<BR>
From: cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Riot Control Agents<BR>
<BR>
>Real world items:<BR>
><BR>
>A derivative of one of the high blood pressure meds. It slowly lowers<BR>
>your blood pressure. After a while, you get faint if you are standing.<BR>
>So you sit down (or fall down) after more time, you are faint even<BR>
>sitting up, so you lie down or fall down. Now, you are flat on your<BR>
>back, and getting over excited will tend to make you pass out. Now the<BR>
>riot police can collect you.<BR>
><BR>
>A derivative of that surgical muscle relaxant I mentioned. The effects<BR>
>start at the base of the spine and work up. So you lose control of your<BR>
>feet and ankles, then of the knees, etc, until you are effectively a<BR>
>(temporary) quadraplegic. Again, at this point the police wander over<BR>
>and pick you up. <BR>
<BR>
What about physical restraint materials? I can think of two examples<BR>
from SF:<BR>
<BR>
1. Riot Foam from Judge Dredd: stuff sprayed like from fire hoses, which<BR>
hardens moments after contact with air. It's possible to breathe through<BR>
it (porous? gas permeable?) but once it sets, you have to be chipped out...<BR>
<BR>
2. This is less firm in my memory, but I seem to recall something in<BR>
the novel on which Soylent Green was based, something about a very long<BR>
strip of metal that was carried coiled and tied... as soon as the it was<BR>
untied, it returned to its original, straight, shape. Not sure exactly<BR>
*how* this was supposed to be used for riot control, and my reference<BR>
could be incorrect... (I don't even remember the name of the novel...)<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
     Glenn St-Germain  Edmonton, Alberta, Canada <BR>
cos90@powersurfr.com  http://plaza.powersurfr.com/glenn<BR>
        "There is no longer any normal to be"<BR>
                                 -- Gary Numan<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 20:56:56 -0800 (PST)<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
Subject: Re: Riot Control Agents<BR>
<BR>
- --- cos 90 <cos90@powersurfr.com> wrote:<BR>
> >Real world items:<BR>
> ><BR>
> >A derivative of one of the high blood pressure<BR>
> meds. It slowly lowers<BR>
> >your blood pressure. After a while, you get faint<BR>
> if you are standing.<BR>
> >So you sit down (or fall down) after more time, you<BR>
> are faint even<BR>
> >sitting up, so you lie down or fall down. Now, you<BR>
> are flat on your<BR>
> >back, and getting over excited will tend to make<BR>
> you pass out. Now the<BR>
> >riot police can collect you.<BR>
<BR>
Great, except that old people and kids will get killed<BR>
by it! This is the sort of problem that's stopped such<BR>
chemical solutions being used nowadays.<BR>
__________________________________________________<BR>
Do You Yahoo!?<BR>
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 1999 23:57:12 EST<BR>
From: DanOwsen@aol.com<BR>
Subject: remove<BR>
<BR>
remove danowsen@aol.com<BR>
unsubscribe danowsen@aol.com<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
<BR>
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 1999 01:07:16 -0500<BR>
From: "Chris Seamans" <semo@pil.net><BR>
Subject: Re: modern roleplayers<BR>
<BR>
My apologies for sending this to the list... I couldn't find the original<BR>
posts in the thread, and I'm hoping that it finds the right people. I will<BR>
gladly take it offlist.<BR>
<BR>
From: Kyle Schuant <kyle3054@yahoo.com><BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> Kyle wrote:<BR>
>> >Creepy stuff! That particular game I dislike because done as it's<BR>
>>  >intended, it's all rather dark and depressing.<BR>
<BR>
To be fair to the Storyteller System games, they're not supposed to be<BR>
really all that depressing, and most of the darkness is purely a matter of<BR>
style. When played "right", Vampire is really about tragic heroism. Check<BR>
out the section on Humanity if you don't believe me. Every other game in the<BR>
Storyteller System line has something similar built in, whether it's part of<BR>
the plot, as it is with the struggle against dark forces for control of<BR>
reality in Mage, or part of the system, as it is with Vampire and Werewolf,<BR>
or a little of both, as it is in Wraith.<BR>
<BR>
Ultimately, the tragedy in the various White Wolf games comes from the<BR>
alienation and isolation inherent in the settings. That's nothing new for<BR>
cultural heroes in America. In westerns, it's common for the lone gun<BR>
fighting hero to ride off into the sunset as a sad song plays. Police<BR>
heroes, like Dirty Harry, are alienated from their peers due to their work<BR>
ethic, as well as their community at large. Bruce Willis has made a career<BR>
playing the embittered, alienated and isolated hero.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
>> >I think a dark seesion or two is great, but ultimately if I want<BR>
>> >to be a misanthropic socially isolated angst-ridden strange dude<BR>
>> >(like vampires are supposed to be according to most players), I'd<BR>
>> >say could probably manage that in real life (not that I have, thank<BR>
>> >G-d!) And if it ain't done that way, it's just meaningless slaughter,<BR>
>> >and incomprehensible politics.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Considering the fact that most roleplayers, especially young roleplayers,<BR>
are *already* socially isolated "strange dudes", and the fact that young<BR>
people today are literally filled to the brim with anxiety, it's not hard to<BR>
see the appeal. Most of them *are* managing that in real life already.<BR>
<BR>
Take a look at the various "character classes" in the Storyteller Systems<BR>
games, take out the various supernatural elements, and if you're between the<BR>
age of 16 and 25 or so - maybe even a little older - you'll likely see the<BR>
bare bones of one or more people you already know.<BR>
<BR>
Still, it is entirely possible to play a game in the Storyteller System that<BR>
doesn't collapse into angsty cheese or meaningless slaughter. In my own<BR>
experience, it's also relatively common. *All* roleplaying games have the<BR>
capacity to collapse into either mindless cliches or meaningless slaughter.<BR>
The accusation is usually levelled at AD&D and Vampire... but, it's more a<BR>
matter of popularity than anything else. If Traveller were to suddenly<BR>
replace Vampire in market share tomorrow, it would be less than a week<BR>
before people would criticize Traveller for the same reason. I'm not<BR>
highlighting the critics as much as the players.<BR>
<BR>
Yeah, popular games are going to draw lots of folks, especially younger<BR>
folks, who are going to play adventures and campaigns filled with<BR>
meaningless slaughter. Some of these folks will fall away and leave the<BR>
hobby entirely due to boredom, others will get bored and become "mature"<BR>
roleplayers and stick with the hobby.<BR>
<BR>
>Jeff wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
[I'm not sure who the Jeff is to whom I am responding here... I couldn't<BR>
find the original post]<BR>
<BR>
>> No argument from me - I never saw the point of the whole 'neo-<BR>
>> Goth' movement. I don't know how old you are, and won't venture a<BR>
>> guess ([Kyle is 28], but in my case, I see it as a reaction to the<BR>
>> excessive liberalism, sweetness, and light that was preached from<BR>
>> every rooftop during the '60s and '70s - these are today's kids<BR>
>>'rebelling' against the parents who were the rebels during that era.<BR>
<BR>
I can see where you're coming from, but the "excessive liberalism" is<BR>
slightly out of place. It's not like goths are embracing some sort of<BR>
fascistic ideology or anything. The goth / industrial movement has always<BR>
been utterly fascinated with the late 60s, usually directly via covers,<BR>
samples... but in other ways that aren't directly apparent. There are too<BR>
many to list here, but the late 60s and early 70s *did* have their "dark"<BR>
moments and music as well. While people were chanting "Make Love Not War"<BR>
the Stones were releasing Beggar's Banquet and singing "I was around when<BR>
Jesus Christ had his moment of doubt and pain". Then there was David Bowie<BR>
and the androgynous glam movement. Let's put it this way: it was no accident<BR>
that Peter Murphy, the singer for Bauhaus (one of the earliest lights in the<BR>
goth movement), covered Bowie -nay... emulated Bowie down to the last<BR>
detail - and named his label Beggar's Banquet. It's no accident that most<BR>
goths have their Bowie collection.<BR>
<BR>
Of course, there were lots of other things going on in the 60s and early 70s<BR>
as well that contributed, in one way or another: the God is dead movement,<BR>
the occult revival, the exploitation film boom...<BR>
<BR>
To say that it's the movement is merely a reaction is to grossly<BR>
oversimplify things.<BR>
<BR>
>[Kyle: I see it more as a nihilistic kind of thing, certainly that of a<BR>
>Vampire is a life pretty much devoid of meaning, everything<BR>
>ultimately coming don to animal survival, there being no "higher<BR>
>values."]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Well, to focus on one small segment of a movement in the way that it<BR>
interacts with our own hobby is sort of like focusing on those roleplayers<BR>
who like to "freak the mundanes" at cons and saying that they are typical of<BR>
gamers.<BR>
<BR>
Even so, I know more than a few goths who would balk at being labelled<BR>
nihilistic. Some are quite bouncy and obnoxiously happy. Even among those<BR>
who aren't bouncy, nihilism is really pretty rare. Your average goth is<BR>
hopelessly romantic, and fascinated to some degree with all things mystical,<BR>
mythical and philosophical.<BR>
<BR>
You don't have to trust me on this one. At one point in their life, most<BR>
goths will read, enjoy, and be influenced by the DC / Vertigo comic "The<BR>
Sandman". Head down to your local comic store and pick up one of the trade<BR>
paperback collections and tell me how nihilistic you think the series is. ;)<BR>
<BR>
>Jeff:<BR>
>> Also, to some extent, people are 'growing up' too fast these days,<BR>
<BR>
>> becoming 'too sophisticated' before they've been able to just have<BR>
<BR>
>> fun.  That leads to the 'method acting' style of rle-playing - not<BR>
<BR>
>> automatically a bad thing, but it leads to a gaming style that feels<BR>
>> 'forced' or artificial.<BR>
<BR>
That's an awfully strange way of getting from point A to point B. I'm<BR>
surprised that the "method acting" approach didn't come sooner, since<BR>
roleplaying games are frequently popular - with good reason -among high<BR>
school drama types. It was a direction that roleplaying games were bound to<BR>
go in eventually. I think that the origins of this style of roleplaying go<BR>
back quite a bit further, though. I've been winding my way through the<BR>
Dragon Magazine archive, and I came across an old article by Gary Gygax<BR>
decrying the growing trend of gamers who were putting the playing of roles<BR>
above the "action".<BR>
<BR>
Keep in mind there's always been a crossover of "dress up" types in<BR>
roleplaying fandom. The large SCA crossover, for example. I'm really not<BR>
sold on the "growing up to fast" angle.<BR>
<BR>
>> but the idea is to act like your character would, based on the<BR>
>> situation, as though it  were real life - not some sort of dramatic<BR>
>> presentation<BR>
<BR>
Just to play devil's advocate here: Who says? ;)<BR>
<BR>
>>(which is  what most neo-Goth theme games encourage).<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
To some extent, yeah, but every game system encourages *some* sort of play<BR>
that others don't. The D&D line, for example, tends to encourage the dungeon<BR>
crawl. Traveller tends to encourage mercenary and merchant campaigns...<BR>
Every game brings *something* that is "unique" to the table.<BR>
<BR>
>Kyle wrote:<BR>
>> >I always felt that a roleplaying session should be fun. Sometimes<BR>
>> >it's fun to be scared, or in a dark atmosphere, or worried, or<BR>
>> >disgusted, but ultimately...<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
I think that you're taking such concepts as scare factor, a dark atmosphere,<BR>
and anxiety *much* more seriously than the average Vampire player does.<BR>
<BR>
>[Kyle writes: Well, I say, those that don't take on<BR>
>the kids, shouldn't complain that there are so few in<BR>
>roleplaying today, so few at conventions!]<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
Yep, at least *something* I can agree with.<BR>
<BR>
------------------------------<BR>
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